“As a pastor of five years of a non-emerging church I can honestly say that you could ask just about anyone I know in the non-emerging church the same questions and they’d be like…”duh? what are you asking?”

Tobzilla, who’s fault is that, the people in the pews or the pastors in the pulpit?

I have looked over some of your writings and noticed that many have misrepresented your views at times… and really it surprises me that you have not taken from that and learned mercy and grace and extended that to someone like Brian McLaren… or myself as I am in the emerging conversation or as you call it the emerging church movement.

Interestingly to me is that you have softened a bit on some of your views (at least some of the charismatic movement) and though being one of that persuasion again, (notably many of my EC friends are Calvinistic in their view which I am not… though I believe in eternal security and free will) as least I see a sliver of hope that the Grace you preach will be extended and practiced.

What I see though is that even as you have been misrepresented at times, you still fall into the trap of labeling all in this so called movement (which in itself is a in house debate as to if it is a movement) as heretics… The funny thing is I read you statement of faith from your won church website and agreed with most of it… outside of that I think the statement of justification could be fleshed out much more… though I understand that it is a statement of faith and not a doctorate thesis.

My concern in all this is that Jesus in John 17:17 called for unity in the faith… which I see and have experience by those in the EC, yet what I see and have experienced from those who follow you is slanderous accusation and lies at to my character and ministry. I am a heretic because I have a “link to Brian McLaren’s websites” is what one of your followerer’s have said to me… and unlike your “zap” story (which was a bit funny as I have never heard that used in my 20 some years in the charismatic movement) I will not assume all that follow your teachings act or behave or are following how you act and behave. In fact I hope you find that many of us in the EC are working hard to address the issues of post-modernity and modernity and are seeking to give an answer in gentleness and respect… (I am sorry as I do not see this on display here on this site). I see that you have some genuine concerns and I too seek that people find a biblical view of truth and one not based on humanist reasoning. I have been attacked by some who claim I do not believe in truth… in fact they (this is a person who follows your teaching btw) that we can come to a saving knowledge without a relationship with Christ Jesus… (Again I do not assume you teach this… and view this person as aberrant, yet he is being herald by some anti-emerging site as an up and comer!)

I hope you can see that while you may have inadvertently found some that have strayed off the path… the bulk have not. In fact I think you miss a very subtle nuance about Brian’s books and that he is not out to give an answer… to even tell one what to believe… but he desires to ask the question to send on back to the Bible and get the answer, from the Holy Spirit leading one in understanding what is written. This is subtle as I have said, and if one has not read books like “More Ready than you Realize” which is about evangelizing in the post-modern matrix one might not “get it”…

I also beseech you to beware that if you are wrong and have mischaracterized Brian in any way shape or form… that you are slandering… and slanderer’s do not inherit the Kingdom of God… and to continue in this… without absolute certainty you are not wrong in any way shape or form is usurping Jesus as the TRUE JUDGE and placing yourself in HIS THRONE of Judgment… I hope that is not true for you.

So, please, consider what you are doing and saying… and I trust that you practice what you preach… and that is Grace to you…

Blessings,
iggy

Anyone that wants to know the full council unfortunately will need to do a lot of study on his or her own (You know, study to show yourself approved) like ecclesiology, eschatology, or the meaning of penal substitution. I have attended 3 churches over the past 24 years and found that 2 of them were not teaching as Paul and the other Apostles tough, so I left them and found a church that teaches doctrine (MEAT). A church or Pastor is called to equip the Saints by teaching them correct doctrine for spreading the Gospel and the defense of it. Unfortunately most people would leave any church that would teach that and probably end up in Emergent Churches that are more interested in programs and filling the needs of the congregation and keep them happy (to fill the pews) as they send them towards hell.

I hear alot of talk about how emergents don’t know ecclesiology, eschatology, or the meaning of penal substitution. Most evangelicals, or those who claim to be, don’t really understand these concepts either. If you grabbed the average church goer, they would be stumped by these terms. If knowing and understanding these concepts is what determines who is doctrinally sound, I suggest we not only show concern for those in the emergent church, but also those in most evangelical churches.

What does quoting the 10 commandments have to do with where one stands with God as a Christian saved by Grace?

Why do we need to be able to quote it when we can read it right out of the Bible? To know the bible does not mean that we know God.

We need to stop worshipping the Bible and start worshipping the one who the Bible is about.

Doug

I can only say that for a PK how can you make those statements? John and a couple others here have answered my statement and your question quite well so I will not go to long with my answer.

If you don’t know what the 10 commandments are Doug ,how can you know your own depravity and give God the glory for saving you by His Grace? The Bible talks about testing our selves and everything (see verses below). How can we do that without the knowledge of what the Bible says (see verses below)?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.

Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Romans10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Philippians 1:9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ–to the glory and praise of God.

I would suggest you do a word study on test, examine and knowledge to see how important it is in scripture.

Thanks for the interaction. I just want to point out one thing, when we present the Gospel we are presenting a systematized theology, so the problem isn’t systematics, but staid sytematics.

Hayden