In a post above I asked four important questions. These questions are the crux of the Lordship controversy as it relates to the recpetion of salvation.

I am reproducing them here so that they are not lost far up the thread.

1) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT require a commitment to follow Jesus in submissive obedience in order to be born again?

2) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT condition salvation (being born again) on a commitment of full-scale self-denial and a willingness to die for Jesus’ sake?

3) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT define saving faith as full surrender in exchange for salvation?

4) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT condition the forgiveness of sin, and salvation from the penalty of death and Hell on a commitment to live in obedience to the Lord’s commands?

Thank you,

LM

“How do you support your definition of what it means to confess Jesus as Lord?”

In the case of this word “confess,” the meaning is clearly understood by examining the etymology. Seventeen pages of my book in one chapter dedicated to a discussion of that one verse- Romans 10:9 supports my definition. This chapter is dedicated to a careful examination of and commentary on this important verse. Several key words (Confess, Lord, Believe) from the verse are studied and compared. I demonstrate how this passage cannot support John MacArthur’s Lordship theology that calls for commitment and surrender in “exchange” for salvation.

“In Phil. 2:10, 11 – Paul speaks of the exaltation of Jesus and says that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. To confess Jesus as Lord is to acknowledge He is the authority, He is the master – the one who has the right to call the shots in my life.”

The Philippians passage you cite is not a salvation message. Jesus is Lord and master and a born again disciple of Christ should respond to Him as such (Romans 12:1-2).

“Jesus said in Luke 6:46 – ‘Why do you call Me Lord and do not do what I say?’ The implication being that the Lord is the one to whom we owe obedience.”

Again you would be correct if you are referring to the obligation of every genuinely born again Christian. I trust you understand that living obediently, or even making a commitment to live in obedience to His commands is not the way a man is saved.

“The essence of sin is rebelling against God and His authority. There can be no true saving faith until a person sees this aspect of their state and desires to repent of it.”

Biblically defined sin is missing of the mark; falling short (Rom. 3:23). The sin that ultimately dooms man to eternal Hell is the sin of unbelief (John 3:36).

“This would be consistent with John in his epistles who stated, ‘by this we know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments.’ [I John 2:3] – i.e. if we have submitted to His lordship – we give evidence of possessing saving faith.”

I must reiterate that submission to His lordship does not save anybody. Submitting to His lordship is not a proper definition of saving faith. The faith that saves should result in submitting to His lordship. A lost man does not become a child of God by keeping His commands. When a disobedient sinner truly trusts Christ to save him, that act of faith is itself obedience to God!

Romans 10:9 does not support a message which conditions salvation on surrender and commitment to the Lordship of Christ.

LM

You said on Romans 10:9 –
“To confess the Lord Jesus means to agree with God (to say the same thing) about the Person and works of the Lord Jesus Christ. In its biblical (Romans 10:9) definition “confess” does not require a commitment of life or personal surrender to be born again.”

I think it is a much bigger item to confess Jesus as Lord.

How do you support your definition of what it means to confess Jesus as Lord?

The standard definition given by BAG for kurios = Lord, master, owner

In Phil. 2:10, 11 – Paul speaks of the exaltation of Jesus and says that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord

To confess Jesus as Lord is to acknowledge He is the authority, He is the master – the one who has the right to call the shots in my life.

Jesus said in Luke 6:46 – ‘Why do you call Me Lord and do not do what I say?’

The implication being that the Lord is the one to whom we owe obedience

That has been generally understood even among FGers who argue that Christ can initially be received as Savior and then maybe later on as Lord if we wish to.

My point is that – a genuine confession of Christ’s lordship will bring with it a corresponding submission to the Lord or the very confession is a charade.

The essence of sin is rebelling against God and His authority. There can be no true saving faith until a person sees this aspect of their state and desires to repent of it.

This would be consistent with John in his epistles who stated, ‘by this we know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments.’ [I John 2:3] – i.e. if we have submitted to His lordship – we give evidence of possessing saving faith

If a person hears the gospel and says, ‘I believe – I believe’ – but there is no change in their life and they show no desire to follow Christ – their heart is just as steeped in rebellion against God as the pagan down the street who perhaps has never even heard the gospel.

In Christ,

Thanks for the note. I appreciate your concern.

You asked, “Do you mean to say that a person can be saved without confessing Christ as Lord?”

No, because as you noted Romans 10:9 is clear on this matter. To confess the Lord Jesus means to agree with God (to say the same thing) about the Person and works of the Lord Jesus Christ. In its biblical (Romans 10:9) definition “confess” does not require a commitment of life or personal surrender to be born again.

You asked, “If confession of Christ as Lord is necessary to salvation – is not some kind of surrender to Him as Lord the essence of saving faith?”

In the biblical definition of faith we do not find any suggestion of surrender.

Faith is the translation of the Greek (pistis), and occurs 245 times, and is almost always translated faith, but is occasionally rendered believe, belief, assurance, or fidelity in the King James Version of the Bible. Faith is basically a trust or confidence in someone or something. An act of surrender, real or promised, is not biblical faith and does not save anybody.

You wrote, “You sound like you wish to overstate the case of LS – in order to knock it down.”

No, I structured my questions to Nathan on LS as it is defined by its advocates. I am waiting for Nathan to get back to me on those questions, which in essence I have directed to Dr. MacArthur.

As for the balance of your notes: I do not excuse the loose living of professing believers. I would have real concerns if a man said he is saved, but shows little interest in the things of the Lord. With that said, however, we can find examples of that kind of shallow, but genuinely born again Christian in most of our churches.

There are believers who can and do become carnal. I also believe it is wrong to view behavior as the over-riding determinate of whether or not a man is born again.

You should visit my blog, I have more on these matters there.

LM

http://www.indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com

Rom. 10:9 – ‘That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved.’

If confession of Christ as Lord is necessary to salvation – is not some kind of surrender to Him as Lord the essence of saving faith? [note I do not use the word, 'full']

Perhaps this debate is being tortured over the fallacy of the excluded middle

You sound like you wish to overstate the case of LS – in order to knock it down

If you think a person can be saved without having a desire to follow Christ – I think you have real problems with Romans 10:9

Kurios = Lord, master, owner

We can say the words, ‘He is Lord’ – all we want but if no genuine desire to follow occurs – that faith is a charade.

A person cannot say, ‘I believe in Jesus – I believe in Jesus – I just don’t care what He says’
That is not faith – that is delusion

Jesus Himself said,
Luke 6:46 – ‘Why do you call Me Lord and do not do what I say?’

Can a person enter the narrow gate and remain on the broad path?

Is the prodigal son still saved if he never gets up and leaves the pigs?

You wrote, “Your continual insistence that lordship salvation teaches salvation by works makes me think that you do not fully understand lordship salvation or the Calvinistic soteriology that undergirds it. The ability to respond, at any level, to the gospel is only possible by God’s grace.”

As for Calvinism I do understand much of it, and I reject all five-points as I understand them. I especially reject the regeneration before faith that many Calvinists hold to, but will not speak of in unvarnished terms.

As for Lordship Salvation and works: I have been qualifying what I mean by “works.” I do not suggest that Lordship Salvation demands a lost man perform some kind of rituals or go through a sacramental system (RCC) to be saved.

I have a way we can settle this particular matter. You are the personal assistant to Dr. MacArthur. You are speaking on his behalf and represent his doctrinal positions. With that in mind I am going to ask you the following:

1) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT require a commitment to follow Jesus in submissive obedience in order to be born again?

2) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT condition salvation (being born again) on a commitment of full-scale self-denial and a willingness to die for Jesus’ sake?

3) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT define saving faith as full surrender in exchange for salvation?

4) Are you prepared to say that John MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation does NOT condition the forgiveness of sin, and salvation from the penalty of death and Hell on a commitment to live in obedience to the Lord’s commands?

Thank you,

LM

Thank you for your comment.

I did not say that becoming a disciple preceded salvation, as though someone could follow Christ for a period of time and then subsequently receive salvation. Nor do I think that is what Pastor Van Meter was saying. I think he was looking at the historical situation in Acts and noting the historical progression in nomenclature… followers of Christ were known first as “disciples” and then later as “Christians.”

But perhaps I have misunderstood Pastor Van Meter. As I noted earlier, I do not know anything about him or his ministry.

Be that as it may, I must stress that I do not believe that discipleship precedes salvation. Nor do I know any lordship proponent who teaches that. The two occur simultaneously. A true believer is a disciple. Someone who claims to believe, but is unwilling to submit to Christ, is a false professor of faith.

Nonetheless, I would be curious about your understanding of John 12:25-26 (the verse I cited above). Is that a call to salvation or a secondary call to discipleship? The context seems to be a sermon to unbelievers (the Greeks of v. 20 and the crowd of v. 29). Jesus Himself mentions eternal life and spending eternity with Him. He highlights both self-denial (“hate your life”) and discipleship (“serves Me”/”follow Me”) in the context. Perhaps you deal with these verses in your book. I have not yet received it, but am looking forward to its arrival any day now.

One more thing (just for reiteration’s sake)… lordship salvation does not teach salvation by works. We are not saved because we have any inherit goodness or merit. We are not saved because of our own acts of righteousness. We are saved only through the substituionary work of Christ on the cross. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

The gospel message emphasizes that we cannot save ourselves. When we come to the end of ourselves, we realize that there is nothing good in us, and we cry out to God for mercy (cf. Luke 18:13-14).

Your continual insistence that lordship salvation teaches salvation by works makes me think that you do not fully understand lordship salvation or the Calvinistic soteriology that undergirds it. The ability to respond, at any level, to the gospel is only possible by God’s grace.

Thank you again for your comments.
- NB

Let me repost a portion of what you have expressed agreement with. Pastor Van Meter said, “We are messed up when we teach people that you can become a believer and later on a disciple. If a person does not become a disciple, they are not a Christian. By the way, Christian comes after being a disciple; did you know that?”

Pastor Doug Van Meter was preaching on Lordship Salvation. Pastor Van Meter is clearly saying that becoming a disciple precedes becoming a believer, a Christian. He says man cannot become a Christian (cannot be born again) unless he first becomes a disciple. He is speaking of a requirement for salvation.

To reiterate a point I have stressed several times: We are talking about how a lost man receives eternal life; how he is born again. With that established- to agree with Pastor Van Meter’s quote indicates you believe to get saved (become a Christian) the lost man must first become a disciple of Christ.

In follow up you state, “…the call to salvation is a call to self-denial and discipleship.” Several times I have been very clear about defining our discussion within the bounds of the requirements for salvation, NOT the results. Therefore, I have to conclude that you believe “self-denial and discipleship” are requirements for salvation.

A born again disciple of Jesus should be willing to bear the cross, commit himself to Christ, follow Christ, surrender to Him, and be willing to die for His sake.

How can becoming a disciple of Christ (meeting the conditions of discipleship) to become a Christian not be a works based gospel?

LM

http://www.indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com

It is this ambiguity that I believe leads a person to an un-healthy self-introspection when it comes to finding assurance–the result is that genuine growth never occurs because self-reflective types of people become obssesed with, if they have ever done enough to ensure that they are saved and elect–do you see the conundrum your perspective leads to; William Perkins certaintly felt the existential weight of the implications of his and your Calvinism.

Thanks again for the clarification .

P.S. I think it’s irresponsible to assert that there will be works that verify someone’s salvation; and then not specify what indeed these works are. I believe this ambiguity creates space that the flesh and the enemy prey on.

In Christ