In this post you wrote, “We must remember above all that salvation is a sovereign work of God…. As a part of His saving work, God will produce repentance, faith, sanctification, yieldedness, obedience, and ultimately glorification. Since He is not dependent on human effort in producing these elements, an experience that lacks any of them cannot be the saving work of God.”

In The Gospel According to Jesus you wrote, “Thus conversion is not simply a sinner’s decision for Christ; it is first the sovereign work of God in transforming the individual.” (The Gospel According to Jesus: [Revised & Expanded Edition], p. 114.)

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged,” (John 16:9-10).

The Holy Spirit is come to convict the world of “sin” (note singular). What is the “sin” that the Holy Spirit will reprove the world over? That “sin” is explained in verse 10, which is the sin of “unbelief.”

The lost man needs to be confronted with the Law to bring him/her to know the need for forgiveness through Christ. The book of Galatians is very helpful in this matter. The sin that is damning the lost man to hell is “unbelief” and the only act that will result in salvation is “belief” (John 3:16; Acts 16:31).

When you demand a commitment to discipleship (i.e. “take up your cross, losing your life for my sake, etc.”) you are requiring a decision from a lost man, which is impossible for him to make (John 15:5). This kind of gospel message frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21). The Holy Spirit does not indwell this lost man, he is not regenerated. He cannot make a decision of surrender to the Lord because he does not yet know the Lord.

Thus when I read your quotes above I understand why you must come to an extra-biblical, a rational view of the order of salvation: regeneration before profession of faith rather than simultaneous to it.

After repenting of the sin of “unbelief” the newborn child of God enters into the life of sanctification and begins to repent of his “SINS” (1 John 1, etc.).
LM

We took the bold out of your earlier comment (4 up) to stop the open code (which was causing the continued bold font).

Otherwise, we did not change the content of your post.

In Psalm 78

32In spite of all this, they still sinned;
despite his wonders, they did not believe.
33So he made their days vanish like a breath,
and their years in terror.
34When he killed them, they sought him;
they repented and sought God earnestly.
35They remembered that God was their rock,
the Most High God their redeemer.
36But they flattered him with their mouths;
they lied to him with their tongues.
37Their heart was not steadfast toward him;
they were not faithful to his covenant.
38Yet he, being compassionate,
atoned for their iniquity
and did not destroy them;
he restrained his anger often
and did not stir up all his wrath.

The return (or result) for repenting is God stilling his here and now chastisement (sometimes severe chastisement) upon the people that have repented, sometimes even if the repentance is wobbly.

God bless.

Well said, Jodie. On the “reason” side, it is a great mistake to hold that repentance is a “work.” The Bible never expresses it so. The analogy of the prisoner is an illustration of the biblical teaching. Reasonable minds can differ on the Lordship debate, but not on what the Bible says about repentance. A “work” in the NT is that which MERITS (earns) a return. Repentance is never said to do that. Not even in the OT, in fact.

It is shocking to me that you have misunderstood MacArthur’s teaching so much so that you actually equate his position as one of embracing a works salvation when in fact he has consistently stated all along that faith is a gift and that the bible simply calls/commands us to obedience, discipleship, belief, repentance, in the same way it exhorts us to abide, hope, love, trust, walk, pary without ceasing, etc. and that is “to give evidence of the hope that is within us”, “that we should walk in them”, to “become holy and blameless” “in order that they may see your good works and give glory to God”.

As I stated in a previous discussion, this is about God’s glory. You mistake the call to obedience as a work when the bible teaches it is a gift. Do you believe the disciples were obeying their master when they preached and were jailed and beaten. Yet their response was to count it as joy to have been found worthy to suffer for Christ by giving evidence of their faith. Their persecution was the assurance that they were getting the message out correctly and that their faith was real, alive, obedient, and glorfying to God. Jesus promised that men would hate them for His sake.

You wrote: ———————————

Not one of these statements of John MacArthur is a true reflection of the biblical doctrine of saving faith. What these claims in fact reveal is a deep-seated fear of the total freeness of God’s saving grace, as though that freeness subverted morality. On the contrary, it is precisely the wonderous unconditional love of God as expressed in the free gift of eternal life that is the root and cause of all New Testament holiness

———————–

MacArthur’s fear is not of the freeness of God’s saving
grace, but rather of the danger of those who profess to believe and yet give evidence to the contrary and therefore blaspheme God’s name and his glory.

Three examples of God’s emphasis on obedience.

Adam and Eve.

Moses and the rock.

Jesus simple yet powerful “go and sin no more”

Peter’s denial caused Jesus to call into question Peter’s love. Is there evidence that Peter obeyed after the “feed my sheep” lecture?

Thank you for carrying out these discussions with grace. Bless you.
Dan

The comment should have made me weep…

“If a Death Row prisoner is pardoned by the governor, and as a condition of his release must sign a waiver wherein he swears to obey the laws, no one would describe this as a “work.” It is merely a condition of his release. If he refuses to sign, the authorities would be wise not to let him out. Indeed, to do so would be dereliction of duty.”

I hope both sides of this crucial debate can be teachable in the sense of sticking with reason and searching diligently God’s authoritative Word.